DTWOF episode #510
July 12th, 2007 | Strip Archive
Jeez, you guys*. I totally fucked up. I was supposed to put up the new episode yesterday, not the archive one. I don’t know what the hell I was thinking. Thanks to the people who questioned the order.
*I considered deleting the ‘you guys,’ given the mild uproar my recent exclamation of “man” provoked. But I’ve used ‘you guys’ in a gender neutral way all my life, and feel attached to that conception, so I’m going to let it stand. Precision in language matters, but so does a judicious elasticity (and by that I don’t mean the elasticity so recently and shamefully employed by the judicial branch of our government.)
282 Responses to “DTWOF episode #510”
July 12th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Worth waiting for !
July 12th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
oh, my!
in another vein, the kitty on Mo’s chair reminds me of Julia on Alison’s chair way-back-when. a memory that’s both sweet and sad.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Alison, this is your blog, and you don’t have to apologize for anything you say on it — Period(.) If people object, there’s plenty of room in the blogosphere for them to create their own forum. And I like the last panel of this strip — the look on Mo’s face as she swallows her own angst to listen to a friend’s is painfully familiar. Great job, as always!
July 12th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Ok, so we have the new episode. Now I’m totally depressed. Sorry I said anything. I am, of course, kidding. Great ep, as always. Love the facial expressions on everyone, esp. Toni.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Mo and Clarice are getting back together after all these years, maybe? Please? Or at least moving in together platonically since they both need to get away from their exes really badly. The suspense is killing me. I know AB’s gotta do what she’s gotta do, but I’m hoping she can get back on a every 2 weeks DTWOF schedule sometime soon. Once a month is just not enough.
The news report in the background is wonderful too. Wilding supreme court justices. Perfect.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
love it !
i think it’s ridiculous that someone started hoopla over the usage of the word ‘man’ in that post. do they not have better fish to fry in the world of gender equity than yelling at AB’s vernacular in her own blog. Clearly Alison is the foremost facilitator of patriarchy…..
also, AB i do hope you’re not offended in my referring to you as a fish….
July 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Bellemalheur– What do you say if you’re vegan? “Better beans to braise”?
July 12th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Oh, Mo. If only you knew how many of us would be ready to take your call.
Here’s my advice Mo:
Change the locks. Smash Sydney’s iFone into about two pieces. Hurl both pieces out the window. Follow them with all her clothes, books, writing, computer disks, etc.
Step outside.
Douse pile with lighter fluid.
Go inside, pack a bag, put the cat in her carrier and then put bag and cat in car.
Set the pile on fire.
Drive away.
Don’t look back.
SydNEY
CheNEY
Coincidence? I think not.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Mo! I want to hug you!
July 12th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Your politics are just so cool, calling those Supreme Court justices a gang!
I love how you illustrate the ways language is used to prop up some people and denigrate others.
**kisses and hugs**
July 12th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Wow, Alison, this is AMAZING. Where to begin?
Mo & Sydney - Syd looks like she’s checked out, or can’t deal. Maybe it’s temporary, or maybe she’s on her way out.
Clarice - OMG, what is with that “Do you want to do something?” Is Clarice trying to build a friendship, or is her “attracted to the unavailable” kicking in - with Toni as Ms Unavailable?
Toni & Clarice - WTF is this “I can’t keep living here if you’re involved with someone” agreement?!?!? Maybe they’re scared of how they’d feel if the other brought someone home, but damn, talk about UNREALISTIC much???? Not spending time with friends, etc, because it MIGHT lead to being involved is going to cause more isolation and pain. Not to mention the having sex is low on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Choosing to live without (partnered) sex thing is one thing, but /having/ to do so is another entirely.
Raffi - LOVE that his voice changed, and Mo’s reaction. Crazy grins abound
:)
Clarice spilling - Yay Clarice for asking for help.
Mo’s reaction - Yay Mo for acting like a grown-up!
And yeah, the Supremes is good.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Oh - more on Maslow’s hierarchy is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow’s_hierarchy_of_needs.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Another wonderful episode. I kind of feel like I got a twofer this week, with both an archive episode and a new one. I’m so new to this comic, and while I’ve gone as far back in this blog as I can, I’m disappointed in the presentation at PlanetOut, and wish there were a better way to read all the books-full worth of archives.
I’m disappointed (but not surprised) that the Boredom/Wafflebooks where I purchased Fun Home didn’t carry any of the DTWOF treasuries. I guess I’ll just have to go to Amazon; there just aren’t any indy bookstores around my side of town.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Hey Kelli–no need to go to amazon. Try firebrand instead: http://www.firebrandbooks.com/store/commerce.cgi?product=Cartoons&cart_id=302331.4297
great strip.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
This is getting depressing. Is there anything exciting on the horizon for any of the characters? How is Jezanna? Maybe there is something good in her life.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Dean Haverstick should talk some F*****g sense into Mo.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
I also like the 2 episodes in one week deal…keep the archives coming I say! I remember the first time I saw that Batwimmin t-shirt…I really want one of those
I would like to see Toni and Clarice patch things up though. It is sad to me that no one in the strip seems to make it for the long haul.
Kelli—Firebrand is the best way to get the old DTWOF books. I’ve been reading the strip in Funny Times for years and just decided to get the books over the past few months…they are definitely worth owning. Especially when Alison pops up with one of her “name all these butts” games
July 12th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Alex, I totally agree with you! I couldn’t believe Sydney totally blew off couples counseling. I just don’t think she cares!
July 12th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
I know that this has been commented on a thousand times since it is one of the big defining characteristics of her strip, but I love how Alison Bechdel ties each episode into the moment. It’s more impressive when she does it in flashbacks, meticulously researching old clothes and hairstyles – 1978 is 1978, 1982 is 1982 – but it’s still a lot of work to keep the strip up to date and in the moment. She does it subtly and logically without having characters step out of character. For instance, of course Sydney would have to have an iPhone. And Raffi’s voice changing is in stark contrast with so many strips in which everyone is frozen in time forever and rapidly become anachronisms.
The Michael Moore movie mentioned is excellent, BTW.
And, hey, I think they *should* call Carlos. I miss him.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Kelli– Another option is to walk into your favorite independently-owned bookstore and ask them to order AB’s books for you. That’s how I got almost all of them.
Jana C.H.
Seattle
Saith WSG: Man, sprung from an ape, is ape at heart.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Heh, I recall a strip (coming up soon in the old strip recap) where Mo was whining to Clarice on the phone, asked Clarice how she’s doing, then promptly cut her off when the response was `Great!…’. Either Mo has learned to put her own stuff on hold, or else misery seizes her attention more than content.
Or maybe Mo’s is embarrassed that she hadn’t guessed Sydney’s infidelity before… or, cause if someone else knows about it, it’s more real…
July 12th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
I love Raffi’s new look. He looks like he’s been taking some bong hits for Jesus himself (maybe while camped out in the basement, listening to some vintage Black Sabbath.:)
July 12th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
I like to see Mo dialing on the old landline phone suspended just over Sydney’s now empty “iFone” box.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Awwwwwwwwwww, the pain I feel for everyone in this episode. Gawd!
July 12th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
the hose pipe held by Tony looks like a dropping gun, or am I wrong?
July 12th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
JenK — the reason Toni asked Clarice if she had any plans for tomorrow night was not that she was sending out any kind of reconciliatory feeler; she wanted to make sure Clarice could get Raffi after his all-day field trip. Which seems fine to me; in the past Clarice often was too busy to handle such scutwork. It’s Clarice who’s having second thoughts, but then she’s not dating anyone. (I don’t think there’s much future for Gloria and Toni, myself, at this point they’re kinda stuck with each other because they broke up each other’s couple for each other … but we’ll see.) Still, those who complain that by breaking up Toni and Clarice, somehow Alison is encouraging stereotypes of lesbians — well, I have two reactions. One is that Toni and Clarice have always had a rocky relationship, which they always tried to shore up with self-conscious landmarks — the joint checking account, couples counseling, the union ritual, having a baby, buying a house, the civil union, the civil marriage — which tided them over until the next crisis. So I’ve never seen them as exactly a monument to monogamy. Second, by breaking up they *are* acting like the heterosexuals so many Homo-Americans want to emulate: get divorced today, beat the spring rush!
In addition to other details noted in the strip, how about Raffi reading The Dangerous Book for Boys? Katha Pollitt had a good piece on that thing in The Nation recently.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
The silhouettes in panel six are priceless–especially the hose pointed at Clarice. Similarly, the diagonal line of family members in panel ten, each in a different room, is a great (and awfully concise!) image. It sort of sums up their family situation and blows it all wide open in one tiny frame.
Is it just me, or does Mo look like 10 years older recently?
Looks like Alison’s back to making Sydney as hateful as possible. I was almost getting to like her for a bit…but now we’re back to no-feelings-no-vulnerability Sydney.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
I have three sons, and I love watching Raffi’s transformation, fron infant to young man. I think you captured Raffi’s changing voice, with his new hairstyle.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Hah! The iFone box is a fabulous touch! Anybody paying attention - oh say the last few years - knows that Sydney covers up her pain and feelings with stuff stuff stuff.
But it’s all imploding. It’s about time. Had to happen. But I do question the “agreement”. How you a couple agree to be together logistically but agree to not have meaningful romantic or otherwise type of relationships with others? Its kind of F’d up. Its like saying “If we can’t be together, then I’m not going to let you be with anybody else. So there!” Doesn’t make sense and doomed to failure.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Poor Raffi. Puberty and a broken household. I’d say he’s either depressed, lethargic, too cool for it all or just a mixture.
Oh god, he’ll be having sex soon won’t he????
July 12th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Mo and Clarice! “Together Again…” that’s what I’m hoping for!
Great background re:”The Sub-prime Court”.
And Raffi’s voice is changing! God,I feel old.
I’m just glad Alison hasn’t killed the other cat yet…
July 12th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
1. Fab strip, as always. Thanks!
2. As a Californian, I find “you guys” totally gender neutral. When I taught summer school in New Orleans, however, I was called out for being sexist, and told to use “Y’all” instead.
July 12th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
I love switching between the archive episode and the current one to see how Mo has changed — and remained.
That thing about Mo’s reaching out and still finding herself falling into the role of comforter instead of comforted is so familiar it’s kind of creepy.
New gadgets and old habits. Sigh. Seems like a lot of stuff might Die Hard this summer.
Definitley go with ordering through an indie book store as option one, and save firebrand as option two.
July 12th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
And dig Raffi’s eyebrows! Yowza!
July 12th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
AND he’s reading “The Dangerous Book For Boys”—how un-pc of him!
July 12th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
Great episode - in response to comments about whether anything exciting / less depressing on the horizon - what’s going on with Mo’s library career? I was so excited about that plotline, and I assume many folks have seen the much buzzed-about press about the “hip librarian” crowd. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/fashion/08librarian.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Lots of the links and references in there yeild other great sites, blogs, even a librarian comic strip! http://www.unshelved.com/archive.aspx?strip=20070709
July 12th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Alison, excellent use of tiny pin-pricks for eyes on everyone in this strip, as it expresses so well the exhaustion and fear they are all experiencing.
There were some tender moments between Sydney and the “gnarled little shrew”. (So weird feeling Sydney’s experience and Mo’s hurt at the same time…such is the life of a comic strip reading voyeur.)
I understand Mo wanting Sydney to own her psychological motivations, but this relationship is probably not going to last much longer, since Sydney can’t even make attending couple’s therapy a priority, much less work on the relationship. Their experiences are so different now, it’s like they’re not even in the same relationship!
July 12th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Who really still gets after people for gender-specific vernacular slang that’s known to be innocuous anyways? My hometown fought that war a long time ago. There was no winner except for the mortgage companies and the local cynics who had a field day with it anyhow.
Maaaan, New York is hot tonight. Time to hit LES and grab a pint.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
The torture builds… I am sooo sympathetic, Alison, to your need to free that energy, creativity, and time that 50% of dropped strips represents, but as you’ve done that, you’ve upped the narrative pressure, going from more-or-less independent vignettes (like the archive strip you just put on the site), to a soap-opera-like “omigod! what happens next? **can’t wait**”. You’re really toying with your addict playthings, aren’t you?
And it’s no comfort to us Otakus that the quality of the strip is the phenomenal–it only makes us want the next hit sooner!
July 12th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Brilliant.
Oh, and reason #934857 why I love Alison Bechdel: “…And defecated on widely valued social and economic policies of the last century.” Guffaw-haw-haw! (I mean, yes, it’s actually true — sad — but DTWOF is still majorly cathartic for me regarding the sad state of affairs in our world. I mean, it just helps me get through my day, as Ani DiFranco says….)
I, too, was starting to like Sydney, especially when she was emotional when Vanessa died (or was it Virginia sorry!). Now her immature ways are just grating. But the fact that Mo is with someone so totally different from herself is kind of reassuring, just b/c it’s so much like real life. So, I’m agnostic on their r-ship, as I am about Toni & Clarice. They are truly complex characters. Bravo, AB! (I mean, Brava!) : )
July 12th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
I think the usage that offends us is the usage that was used to hurt us when we were younger.
I _hate_ “guys and gals” or “guys and girls” because it was always used by people in contexts where I was the only female, or one of just a very few, and the people who said it always simpered in a way that drew obnoxious attention to me.
I like “guys” just fine, ’cause the people around me almost never attach any gender to it, except when they suddenly feel self-conscious about their usage.
I _hate_ being called a “lady” because I was often chastised for being unladylike as a kid. In my family, it carries a whole freight of class and race distinction which makes me queasy. And, there’s a particular saying, “Horses sweat, men perspire, ladies only glow.”, which I heard from my mother often when I was young, which I really hate, because it implies that women are less corporeal, or at least must hide the fact that they are real human beings who take on extremely physical tasks, like childbearing. My mother’s physical condition is quite bad as a result of having so many children—for the last twenty years both my parents have pretended this wasn’t so and as a result she has not gotten proper medical attention. However, if I were at a royal audience, and it was announced, “Ladies and Gentlemen, Her Majesty”, I would not have any negative associations as the context would be so different.
When I was in my early 30s, a professor called me “the girl with the chalk”, and I wasn’t offended because he was a rather elderly person and meant nothing by it accept that he didn’t know my name. I wouldn’t remember the incident at all, except that it was associated with a funny story. However, I would be offended if I were called a “girl” by someone nearer my age, or who was using “girl” to diminish me.
I don’t think anyone can get it right, because different usages are used to hurt didn’t people in different contexts. A usage that one person thinks is just fine will upset someone else who has had a different experience.
For that reason, I don’t think anybody can really pronounce on what is _the_ appropriate usage.
Makes it all very difficult, doesn’t it?
July 12th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
I love “what is so erotically compelling about that gnarled little shrew” Way to tell off your cheatin’ girlfriend, Mo.
I give you a high five for that nasty little bit of business.
But, as a clinician, I gotta say, Mo…it’s time honey, kick her to the curb and move on. She’s walking out the door, nixing therapy and minimizing her accountability for her deception. Don’t you deserve to be treated with kindness and respect? that’s what I’d tell you if you were in my office…just like that.
And please…Raffi “taking some bongs hits for Jesus himself”!!! That is hysterical!
July 12th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
I would like to point out that anon-eponymous doesn’t seem to mind one bit when I call her my girlfriend! But who knows? Maybe I’ll soon find I’m wrong!
July 12th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Am I getting too involved here, or is it significant that these “unavailable older women in postions of authority” (Madeline and the dean) are also both cancer survivors? And does any of this relate to Sydney’s long-ago bailing on the ailing Thea? (Syd left her for Madeline, right?) And is it significant that Sydney is so self-centered that she couldn’t deal with illness (MS in that case) when she was healthy, but is more interested in cancer survivors than in her own lover now that she is a survivor herself? Or do I just need to get a life?
July 12th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Yep, so much going on;
Now all we have to do is wait another month…
July 12th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
“eviscerated language and defecated on widely valued social policies”
The attempt to move language away from male default is, clearly, a defeated battle. Alison just did the two-step on its dust with her “I’m attached to it, so there” stance. Of course you’re all attached to it — misogyny is what’s normal. But if you don’t equally use “you gals” to refer to a group of mostly men, you’re bullshitting yourself and everyone around you. In every other context, guy means male.
What’s next, rolling back African-American to colored? Because, believe me, there’s huge chunks of the population that were real attached to it, too.
When people who consume your art tell you they find certain kinds of expression oppressive, I wouldn’t call your choice to deliberately continue it judicious elasticity. You have every right to speak however you wish, and so do we in protest. This is not a kingdom (and I use that word purposefully). And I say, to all those reading, Alison’s defense of a woman-diminishing form of address does not speak for me or the feminists I know.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
I cannot believe this - but the last two panels, Mo calling Clarice, is exactly what I would expect to see if AB decided to foreshadow a future relationship btwn Mo and Clarice.
Months ago, I pondered who is the perfect partner in the DTWOF world for Mo and Clarice fit perfectly, because her strengths AND weaknesses perfectly compliment Mo’s.
They are as close to the perfect Yin/Yang combo in the DTWOF universe, but alas I was only indulging myself and I never thought I’d see it happen.
Clarice’s biggest strengths are (when things are going well) she’s driven, she’s focused on her career and making a difference
The synergy between Clarice and Mo would turn Clarice into a dynamo, and Mo as well as both enjoy the big benefit of being part of a happy, well-adjusted relationship.
If Mo and Clarice were to become involved, Mo would finally have someone to focus her like she needs, and Clarice would have someone who could compensate for her workaholic ways AND BOTH would have a partner that sees their weaknesses as good things.
I can’t imagine Clarice NOT getting Mo’s political anxiety.
Rather than dismiss it, Clarice would quickly focus her.
For Clarice this would be especially easy. Since Mo and she share the same political feelings.
This would feed into Clarice’s sense of being a successful driven person. Watching Mo transform from an ADD like character into someone who gets things done and things that Clarice cares about just as much would be an endless adrenaline rush for her.
Mo in turn would be able to compensate for Clarice’s emotional disconnect characteristic of the “doer” personality.
Mo does love doing this. It’s part of her attraction to Sydney. Sydney though is far more reptilian than human, and instead of creating a 2 way connection, Mo created a parasitic connection in which Sydney drained Mo of her energy and gave little in return.
What we see now is the end result.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed. It would be so cool, and a thrill to read the beginnings of a Clarice/Mo matchup.
Maybe this is AB’s first steps in giving all fans a “happily ever after” ending to this very long running strip - that in terms of quality and writing long since passed any comic of similar talent (Bloom County for example.)
July 12th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
I wonder if AB reads these comments.
If so I wouldn’t be surprised if she decided to make a point with Sydney.
I for one was getting tired of all the people making excuses for her clear and undeniable selfish behavior.
How anyone could see her has “caring” beyond that which some find entertaining escaped me.
She always struck me as a reptile - almost a sociopath - luckily for Mo though - one who expressed her anti-societal feelings with massive debt not killing anyone.
I wonder if she was put off by how many people felt something in common with Sydney if she had meant her to be an unlikeable character.
I can just imagine being a bit flummoxed by all the posts that said - in effect - Sydney was not selfish, mean or cruel or even a liar for wanting to maintain her space and boundries.” yeah uh ok.
So perhaps she said enough. I can’t be subtle anymore. It’s obscuring just how cruel and selfish I intended Sydney to be.
So rather than the expected “I’m sorry. Please forgive me. I’ll never do it again. You’re right Mo. Please don’t cry it makes me cry” schtitk that most probably expected, she made her act like the reptile she always has been ith the characteristic selfishness and cold emotions she always have, but many missed, because AB never took it out of context.
Her alone, not in a group or social setting, just Sydney and Mo. Sydney acts her true self. She sees NO reason to ameliorate her behavior to prevent any onlooker/friend from seeing the snake inside Sydney’s skin.
It’s a dose of reality really.
Most anyone who’s been in more than one relationship has been with someone like that.
We learned a lot of hard, painful lessons, and all too often many became cynical and cold themselves.
Will that happen to Mo - I doubt it. I imagine AB has something special for everyone in the future in her regard.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
It’s a regional thing too.
Where I grew up it was a ‘very generic way’ to refer to a group of people.
It did NOT refer to the gender make up.
And regarding using ‘man’as an expilitive - C’mon where is the “revolutionary wimmin spirit” that can see what this does to that word.
By turning it into a “generic explitive” it’s diminished, belittled as word.
Now rather than just referring to what many see as the “oppressor gender” it is a silly word used to express transient frustration or annoyance.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:03 am
Duncan - I asked what was up with Clarice thinking that Toni was going to suggest something. I did not mean to suggest that /Toni/ was missing Clarice, only that /Clarice/ may be wanting to get back together with Toni.
Remember that the only thing that’s made a dent in Clarice’s workaholism since Raffi was born was a) Raffi and b) the thought that Toni might leave. (I don’t mean she’s available to Toni - I mean that if Toni focuses on someone else, Clarice panics. Jealousy, not devotion.)
July 13th, 2007 at 12:18 am
The “you guys” thing is regional.
and it is gender neutral according to my dictionary.
in re the regional part…my paramour, who was raised in the South, detests “you guys”…it hurt her ears. She was used to hearing y’all but says that you guys has entered the Southern vocabulary and is fixin’ to take over.
I use “you guys” often and heard it often growing up. Of course I head “youse” too and have refrained from that one.
The word guys doesn’t offend my feminist sensibilities. I also use the word women…though some feminists do not due to it’s origin. Unlike using “Gentlemen” to address a mixed audience or saying mankind when you mean humankind, both of which I’d never do and would note as archaic if I heard someone do so, to my ears, and frankly, my mouth, “guys” is gender neutral. So guys…that’s my two cents right there.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:20 am
uhm, I HEARD youse…I don’t use youse.
July 13th, 2007 at 1:01 am
Mo’s face as drawn in the first and last main panels, represents some of the best work with expressions I’ve seen in the last few strips. *Really* good work implying movement and suppressed/controlled emotion.
I could stab Sydney. And I’ve been known to like the occasional Syd. I mean, really, if rowing’s more important than your long-term relationship, then just call it like it is and get the eff out. Someone. Anyone. I don’t care which one. Just GO.
And I really feel for Raffi.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:01 am
@ Al, et al: Your comments on Madeline’s interest in women who had her condition really rang true to me- thanks for that insight!
July 13th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Alison, thanks for posting the new episode (and the archived episode)!
Folks,from my perspective, Mo called Clarice because Clarice is a dear old friend, not as a foreshadowing of a romance. But then, what do I know?
July 13th, 2007 at 2:11 am
In fact, it’s not clear whether Mo asked to speak with Clarice in particular; Toni too is a dear old friend.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:28 am
i love “the dangerous book for boys” and the way raffi sits there devouring it with the food.
another wonderful strip! so glad you messed up so we got two
July 13th, 2007 at 3:31 am
But Clarice is her ex—-am I the only one who has done te “sex with the ex” thing?
July 13th, 2007 at 5:47 am
Yeah, I don’t really think that Clarice and Mo could be heading for happily ever after, just because they’ve been there, done that - and it didn’t work out.
In terms of when C+M-HEA (looks like one of those equations the blog got so excited about awhile ago) said, “I can’t imagine Clarice NOT getting Mo’s political anxiety,” isn’t that exactly what happened the first time around? I don’t have the first books with me, but I remember a scene in which Mo is whining about her white liberal guilt after not voting in some presidential election that Reagan won (must have been 1984), and Clarice, exasperated, pulls on her shitkickers and goes stomping over to Tanya’s (is that her name?) instead. Maybe the intervening years of political deception and disillusionment have worn Clarice down to Mo’s level? But I’m not sure that would be a good thing, just because Clarice has always been so much more action-oriented than Mo, even when she was so depressed.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:18 am
AB, Please, please, please, do something to ease the pain we, your adoring readers, are going through, next time! (I felt this avalanche of hurt rush through me while reading this episode. Too much!)
On an up-note: To you newbies, out there, find yourself a copy of “The Indelible Allison Bechdel.” I thought, for sure, that I’d been saturated after hunting down and reading “Fun Home,” and every DTWOF book in the series. Then I happened upon the “Indelible” book in one of my web searches…. Here I am, going on 47 years old, hauling out this book to show my various friends AB’s “self-portrait” in the DTWOF Factory — and making a perfect fool of myself by laughing out loud, yet again, as I show them. Got some quizzical looks from my friends — but I’m confident they’ll figure it out. I just hope I get the book back.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Oh, boy (or man, or what have you), are we really going to go through the wole “guys” thing again? Please, PLEASE stop telling us what we should be offended about! (That about which we should be offended?) You go ahead and Define Yourself, but leave me out of it!
July 13th, 2007 at 8:31 am
Whoops. I meant “whole”, not “wole”. Must caffeinate.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:53 am
I agree, Al, et al.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Defining My Self: This isn’t a kingdom, but it’s not a democracy or republic either; it’s an artist’s personal blog.
AB is an artist and her vocation is to create, and we as the rest of the world either are into her creations or we aren’t. She can *choose* to change her work - or herself - to meet other’s expectations or she can tell us to jump in a lake, but she doesn’t *have* to do anything. If she wants to use language that others find offensive or post photos of her toenail clippings or whatever, that’s fine - you either read it or you don’t.
We as fans may think we “own” AB or that she owes us or whatever, but this is an artist-audience relationship, and telling the artist to change isn’t part of this sort of relationship. I’m pretty sure AB would be creating the strips and writing blog posts even if nobody were reading, because as an artist that’s what she’s driven to do. A true fan would respect the whole person - or take what they wanted and leave the rest. Whine at the band that you like their old stuff better when they want to play songs from their new album, but if you truly are a fan of the band, you’ll at least listen to what they have to say.
AB herself actually had a fun take on the whole artist-fan relationship in a strip from one of the calendars (now found in “The Indelible Allison Bechdel.”) Mo is excited because her favorite author is coming to read at Madwimmin, but she slowly becomes disillusioned as she finds her idol doesn’t match the image she envisioned after reading her books(”she drinks Diet Rotsi?”)
When we respond to an artist, we want them to be exactly like us in all things and feel somehow betrayed if they say or do or are something we don’t agree with. But as with any other healthy relationship, it’s okay to have differences.
Anyway, why quibble over “you guys”, instead of reflecting how great it is to be addressed by our favorite artist at all? If AB called us “you gnarled little shrews” I know a lot of us would still show up here to read!
July 13th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Warning!!! Seriously off-topic comment to follow!!
For anyone who was following the discussion about Janis in the comments on episode #509, SF Weekly has a (frankly enormous) article about the subject of trans kids and puberty blockers. The kid at the center of the article was adopted at birth by a lesbian couple. http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-07-11/news/girl-boy-interrupted/1
I’m not suggesting that the article be discussed here, since Mo’s and Clarice’s problems are pressing enough, but some conversation about the topic is still ongoing on the #509 page in the strip archive. And I just wanted to put the article out there for anyone who’s interested in the subject.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:32 am
Oh yeah, loved “Dangerous Book for Boys” and loved the way Raffi does that yelling-while-still-holding-the-phone-rather-than-putting-the-phone-down-and-walking-into-the-next-room thing that teenagers do so well.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Are you my mother?
Sydney to Madeleine.
And, more poignantly, Mo’s realisation that no, Clarice is not.
I hate those moments in which I have to accept that there is nothing and no one to guard me, that the problem is no one else’s to deal with. Poor phoebes, fledged and flown.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Pittsburghese “Yinz” is pretty gender neutral. It makes me want to gag, but it is gender neutral.
Love the strip, AB.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Re: the “sex with your ex” deal-
My curernt partner , was my second girlfriend, about 10 years ago. Or relationship ended, because then, we both had a slight case of commitment phobia, and honestly, still had some growing to do.
But we always remained friends, and one night in 2003, I went to her place to watch a movie, and the rest, as they say, is “herstory”.
We just celebrated 4 years together–so far, so good…
July 13th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Concerning Raffi’s new look:
Is it just me, or has it seemed to anyone else that in recent strips that Raffi has started looking an awful lot like the late-pre-pubescent version of our heroine in _Fun Home_?
July 13th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Alex K — exactly! Except there’s nothing wrong with a mentor, if you can find one. I love it that the Dean has a DRAGON boat crew. D’you suppose she wears her pearls while she’s paddling, to intimidate the opposition? I have been hoping Sydney would strike up a friendship with the Dean ever since they were in that cancer walk together.
And for those who hate Sydney for walking out on couples counselling — remember her toxic mother, and her “Buddhism, Psychotherapy, and Compassion” conference? There’s no way Syd’s going to play the therapy game. She can’t possibly trust it.
I am really glad to see Mo getting out of her own head and paying attention to someone else for a change. There is hope for her yet.
Now if only Clarice could do the same. She has got to make a serious play to hang onto her relationship with Toni. She can’t just keep letting it fall apart when she obviously cares. And she and Raffi had a great thing going for a while there, before she got so caught up in her relationship troubles. I don’t think there is anyone in the strip who’s exactly right for Raffi (which makes him a real adolescent), but Clarice when she’s paying attention easily beats Carlos.
Duncan — that’s what monogamy is. You work at it. It can be good. Work is good. (Of course “can be good” does not imply obligatory.)
I don’t know what’s going to happen with Toni, but she has no future with Gloria. Gloria is nothing but the physical manifestation of Toni’s boring side.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
“…and telling the artist to change isn’t part of this sort of relationship.”
Amen, mysticriver, Awomen.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Re- all the furor over you guys.
First off, Aunt Soozie- I say yous, I’m from Philly and proud of it. i wasn’t always. Growing up, I thought my accent made me sound stupid. I even tried to adopt a Canadian accent in my teens after living with some for a summer and deciding they sounded hot. Now I recognize my accent shame for the classist bullshit it was and gladly pronounce my yous and wooder and shtreet. (although apparently I’m stuck with canadian versions of “sorry” and “about”)
Secondly, while I consider defining myself’s arguments boring second-wave minutae, the kid has a point.
(the usage of “kid” here does not equal child. In my community, kid is used to refer to someone within the community, a friend of yours, be they of your age group or not. as in “The kidz are alright.” I acknowledge that some might find this usage belittling which is why I’m explaining its context. It also lets one avoid using gendered pronouns.)
As was pointed out earlier int he comments, a great number of people feel comfortable and grew up with using colored as the polite way to refer to African Americans and would be happy to have an excuse to continue doing so. This is uncool.
Likewise, who among us does not cringe to hear the middle schoolers on the bus calling this and that distasteful thing “gay”? The word gay, they will argue, does not refer to the homos, but has become common vernacular for stupid, tacky. be that as it may, we know that this usage is hurtful, is gaybashing, and is uncool.
Thirdly, when you are watching planet unicorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omhB15G2dY4)with your flaming friends and they say “OMG! This is soooo gay!” you all know it is being used as an amazing compliment. (watch the link now. it is amazing)
There’s also the example of it being ok for black folks to use the n word between themselves and not for anyone else to use it.
We can glean from these examples that words, when used by those they are meant to oppress can be subverted and reclaimed.
Therefore, I posit that A.B.’s usage of you guys is perfectly fine as it is used in full knowledge of its implications. If your friendly neighborhood male-identified person was the one using such language, Defining, then yeah, give the kid some learning, but in this case, go get yr underpants in a bunch about something more productive, like my horrible punctuation and sentence structure.
I don’t believe in things like, we’ll deal with sexism after the revolution, but seriously folks, priorities a little?
July 13th, 2007 at 11:55 am
arg, planet unicorn link :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omhB15G2dY4
July 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Love how Mo’s posture/stance in the second panel mirrors Clarice’s later on — both women are outraged.
Are you my mother? I was thinking that Sydney was reminding Molison of her own mom - she’s checked out and defended (see Fun Home)….
July 13th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Planet Unicorn Heyyy!!!! (Thx Riollama! - what a fun Friday I am having! : )
July 13th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Apparently unlike a lot of people here, I’ve always liked Sydney. But she just seemed incredibly cold here. It feels like she and Mo are pretty definitively over–which makes me sad.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Also, in relation to people remarking on how raffi looks like AB’s childhood renderings of herself, that hair is just the fashion right now. 70’s surfer mope redux. ron’s still got it in the new harry potter.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
uh oh…you used the name Molison…did I start something or are you just ready to agitate?
I do (think I) see Alison in Mo’s expressions this episode. I know she’s her own model but still…excellent illustrations, really beautifully drawn.
Shado…that’s disgraceful. What kinda lesbo goes back and sleeps with an ex. oh, wait a minute…uhm, okay,well after taking a good look at that clustr map…you know I ain’t gonna give you my personal history here. maybe some other time. brave of you to spell it out honey…sharing with folks on every friggin continent. (clarification for shado’s lurker fan club…the preceding was said with total love and admiration)
Riotllama…no offense intended. Yous can say yous. I never said it, even as a kid. Since you grew up in this town you know that each neighborhood in Philly had it’s own language. In South Philly, South Philly was known as sow-filly…like a pig and a horse.
But, I think as a city we all say f-oh-n for telephone and wooder for water and awe-n for on. I’ve rid myself of wooder cause I did have some shame…but I still have a mild (to my ears)philly nasal twang that’s not going anywhere.
I tend to call my little clients on using “gay”. Like if a kid complains (oh, and I mean kid in the traditional sense, wait, not a goat…oh you know…) about a parent being overprotective, not wanting the kid to be alone with a paramour, the kid might say of the parent’s concern, “that is so gay”.
I might say, “nope, it’s not gay that their worried about, it’s totally hetero”.
Of course if something like that happened and I was sitting there thinking “I am so darn witty”, the kid, with a puzzled expression might have said back to me, “what’s hetero?”
But, truly, if you don’t know what “hetero” means…are you really ready to do the hetero wild thang? I say no, but then, I’m all opinionated like that.
Some times I’ll poke like this… “It’s gay? Your teacher gave you an assignment on homosexuality for extra credit? Cool. Your school sounds really progressive. You’re so lucky.” but, you gotta say it with the right expression on your face or they might hit you…or worse, not come back.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
All around, a great episode! We could tell by Rafi’s appearance that his voice would be lower.
About “you guys” and other widely used expressions:
Alison and anyone else has every right to use the words they want to use but other people don’t have to like it.
“Guys” has always grated on me but maybe part of that is because I have always felt 100% female although not always the way some people would define female.
In my opinion, it is not a gender neutral term.
How would a man feel if someone came up to a mixed group of men and women and called them “hey girls”?
This has been a long standing battle with me but one I have had to concede that I can’t win because the majority wants to keep using gender biased words.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
uhm, if you use their when you mean they’re…
should you be allowed to have a license to practice psychotherapy?
July 13th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
{Am I getting too involved here, or is it significant that these “unavailable older women in postions of authority” (Madeline and the dean) are also both cancer survivors? And does any of this relate to Sydney’s long-ago bailing on the ailing Thea? (Syd left her for Madeline, right?) And is it significant that Sydney is so self-centered that she couldn’t deal with illness (MS in that case) when she was healthy, but is more interested in cancer survivors than in her own lover now that she is a survivor herself?}
Al, this is a great observation. As a cancer survivor I can say yes, being with other survivors is often more comforting, comfortable and necessary than being with your own lover. I have many outlets for being with other survivors, even if we are not always talking specifically about it. There are things about having experienced cancer that no other person who has not can even imagine, even if they have gone through it with you, even if they try, even if they think they do.
Something no other blogger has mentioned, and YAY Alison! Dragon Boating has become a way of recovery for many breast cancer survivors. There are entire teams of bc dragon boaters. If I wasn’t landlocked, with no lakes, I’d be right there with Sydney and the Dean!
http://avalondragonboating.com/
I picked this site to link to because they have a beautiful and right on description of why bc survivors dragon boat.
July 13th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
While we’re matchmaking for cartoon characters…After thinking about it, the person who is right for Clarice is Harriet. Clarice is just what Harriet was looking for: someone energetic and engaged like Ellen but capable of intimacy like Mo. Also Clarice doesn’t seem to be all that into babies, but she can get into preadolescent kids (ie her and Raffi’s involvement in the 2004 election). So she could be helpful with Harriet’s kid, whose name I’ve forgotten.
I’m not sure Mo and Sydney are really over, unfortunately. Remember, Mo doesn’t leave people. There’s this meme running around that Mo left Harriet over a VCR. She did not: she complained to Harriet about the VCR and Harriet decided to move out. And Syndey isn’t going to leave. Why should she? Mo gives her the implicit right to behave however she wants and acts as her free housekeeper. They won’t ever work it out, but they may stay together in limbo for a very, very long time.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I know others feel differently (as is their right), but I refuse to be called a “survivor” of breast cancer. I got sick, I had treatment, I got well. There’s a 20% chance I’ll get sick again, but if there were ONLY a 20% chance I’d ever again have another migraine, or siege of depression, or any of my other chronic ailments, I would certainly consider myself cured. We all react differently. I feel I have more in common with other migraine sufferers than I do with others who’ve had cancer. That doesn’t mean, however, that I’d necessarily want to sleep with one.
Jana C.H.
Seattle
Saith WSG: Am I not the worst of Nature’s blunders?
July 13th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
If you had been in a car accident would you say you survived it? Would you then call yourself a survivor of a car accident? I only use the word survivor of bc for lack of a better term, but as a result of this conversation I am now more comfortable with it. I understand it better. I wish I could have walked away with your perspective, Jana, but I didn’t. We are all different for so many reasons. BTW after 7 years I only just began to thrive. Before I was just existing and trying to find ways to move on. Maybe Thriver? That isn’t as comfortable to say as survivor. We tend to use common words. New usages take a while.
P.S. I didn’t say anything about sleeping with anyone else. I go to other survivors for friendship and support. I am monogamous in a 13 yr relationship, 3 of those as married.
July 13th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Mo should watch it. She’s not so far from the “gnarled little shrew” stage herself.
July 13th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Jana C.H., I do completely agree.
I don’t feel myself either as a cancer survivor,I just fell ill at one point in my life and got cured. But it certainly did change my perception of life as well as the perception of my body … and it made me understand that the frontier between health and sickness can be uncertain … as in a way is the frontier between life and death.
Virginia Woolf wrote something very beautiful on illness, the title is On being ill, and I can’t resist quoting the first, beautiful, very long sentence of that essay ..
” Considering how common illness is, how tremendous the spiritual change that it brings, how astonishing, when the light of health go down, the undiscovered countries that are then disclosed, what wastes and deserts of the soul a slight attack of influenza brings to view, what precipices and lawns sprinkled with bright flowers a little rise of temperature reveals, what ancient and obdurate oaks are uprooted in us by the act of sickness, how we go down into the pit of death and feel the waters of annihilation close above our heads and wake thinking to find ourselves in the presence of the angels and the harpers when we have a tooth out and come to the surface in the dentist’s arm-chair and confuse his “Rinse the mouth - rinse the mouth” with the greeting of the Deity stooping from the floor of Heaven to welcome us - when we think of this, as we are so frequently forced to think of it, it becomes strange indeed that illness has not taken its place with love and battle and jealousy among the prime themes of literature”.
Ok. Ahem.
… She is one exasperating and attractive woman, I would say.
VW word’s are so breathtaking that’s it’s a little difficult to write anything after. I just wanted to add that I like Syd. I know she’s behaving like a, well, like the most uncaring, selfish person, but, well, I just like the way she’s drawn, like when she goes, looks at Mo before shutting the door up there …
July 13th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Oh, I had just such a rush of love for DTWOF after reading this strip.
July 13th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Kelli - Powell’s the portland independent bookstore carries the DTWOF books - and they are on the online site. It’s a great place…. http://www.powells.com
July 13th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Wait, is Raffi EMO? Noooooo….
July 13th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Elisablue– The reason I didn’t find the discovery of my physical vulnerability transformative is that I learned that lesson so young that I don’t remember it. One of my chronic ailments is a genetic condition that gives me brittle bones. Between the ages of six and seven I had three broken legs and a broken collarbone. As far as I was concerned, broken bones were just a normal part of a surprising world.
I have always been vividly aware of the fragility of the human body, which has made me quite the coward. A sensible coward, but a coward nonetheless. This has also given me an odd sort of courage, since I face actual injuries with exasperation rather than woe. “Oh rats! Another stupid broken bone! Another aching body part! Another set of pills to take!”
Jana C.H.
Seattle
Saith JcH: At least my feet don’t hurt.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
I love you chicklet! Your pictures and words are so damn perfect it hurts sometimes. I wrote to you long ago in a zine called Oh! (I’m Batman). Anyway the Dangerous Book for Boys is a perfect touch. I just shelved this book two days ago in the Bangor Public Library (Maine) where I work. As always Ms. Bechdel you fucking rock!
July 13th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
I love the humor in the strip and on the blog! don’t have much to add to the whole language discussion except it seems valid arguments have been made that point in different directions. I’m relieved that some humor’s been brought to the whole controversy.
oh, and I believe black people’s use of the “n” word to neutralize its venom isn’t serving the community too well just now — as I believe is being noted by columnists like Wm. Raspberry. ’bout time, in my opinion. maybe that use of the “n” word has outlived its usefulness?
I agree that Sydney looks winsome in this strip and Mo’s the one who looks, well, shrewlike. an unfortunate side effect of such strong emotion.
it remains to be seen whether Mo and Clarice could make it work. Mo’s matured quite a bit, is more active — I don’t think she’s missed voting since Reagan was elected in 1980 — and seems she’s come a long way in respect to being both less judgemental and guilt ridden. still, there’s that more recent Nader/Kerry difference of opinion between Mo and Clarice. it’s likely to be quite tense between those two during election years.
I’m still hoping that Clarice can get past her jealousy and insecurity following Toni’s fling because she’s gonna have to do let that go if she wants to be with Toni. so far as I can tell, that’s what she wants and Toni’s waiting to see if Clarice will come through. not waiting, likes he’s tapping her foot and looking for action, but I think that if Clarice comes through, she’ll take her back.
I’d like nothing more than to see them get back together AND for Clarice to pull her weight with household/parenting responsibilities. despite all the upheaval, I see a lot of love in that family.
Mo . . . I’d like to see her ditch Sydney (without torching Sydney’s belongings) and do something daring — like see what’s up with Naomi (who may have moved away by now). maybe Naomi’s left the strip for good . . . or maybe she and David are kaput and she’s waiting in the wings. I’d love nothing more than to see a bi woman who’s been w/a man come back to loving a woman. something about seeing ourselves in the strip . . .
July 13th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Okay, first off…Mo needs to do this to Sydney’s iphone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI
Secondly…I for one wouldn’t mind seeing both Mo and Clarice start over relationship wise, maybe even with each other. BOTH Toni and Clarice have had opportunities to make things work, both have not done so. I realize that Clarice has made many mistakes, however Toni has made her fair share too. Their relationship has been a steady decline over the past few years, neither is really making much of an attempt (as far as I can see) to REALLY fix what’s wrong. Mo needs to leave Sydney. Change the locks, leave all her expensive stuff out on the lawn (preferably in the rain). Sydney obviously doesn’t care and/or takes Mo for granted. Leaving Sydney would serve as a huge wake up call, providing if Sydney even still cares. If she does, then it will make her want to sit down and TALK to Mo and hopefully fix it. If not, then Mo will be free to find someone else.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
How embarrassing. I thought that I knew most of the backstories, but I didn’t know that Clarice is one of Mo’s exes.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
It’s about time for Mo to stand up for herself! She deserves better then the way Sydney treats her. It seems like Sydney has no insight into her behavior and how destructive it is. I can’t believe how grown up Raffi is! on the language note- I’m all for awareness around gendered language, and using non gendered alternatives, but sometimes you just need a phrase that fits- and “you guys” just flows off the tongue. there are just limited available phrases to refer to groups of people, and no matter how hard I try- I can’t stand “y’all Plus, having the characters use language that isn’t always “pc” is a reflection of the way real people talk. and art imitates life-right?
July 14th, 2007 at 12:08 am
what might also be interesting is to see the effect it would have on the friendship group of Mo, Clarice et al if one of the characters took on a new partner. The new partner having to fit in with the long-established group and learning years’ worth of in-jokes and so on. I’ve seen that scenario often and it can make for lots of drama, although I was lucky this time around. I married one of my best friends’ siblings, so I already knew most of the players (and all of the in-jokes). It telt a bit incestous at firt but no more so than picking up a date at a lesbian potluck.
July 14th, 2007 at 5:54 am
I think the frame where Sydney is going out the door is *exactly* like the frame where she announces she’s going to a meeting rather than staying home the night Thea finds out she has MS. I don’t think she’s coming back.
I agree with Dianne that Harriet and Clarice are right for each other — I’d like to see them both go back to being super-achievers. It was great when there were a few people in this strip who were actually professionally addressing the status quo instead just complaining about it. Though Mo & Sydney & Ginger are at least educating the masses, but nurturing is so trad female.
And speaking of, I used to be offended by the anti-male slanted language thing, but I now am totally convinced it’s right. If you read old books that routinely refer to a citizen or scientist or programmer as male, now that it’s unfamiliar you can feel how distancing it is for a woman. We take a lot of our social cues at an implicit level. The same for populations who refer to each other as “boys” and “girls” — they are all disempowered (e.g. blue-collar, older women, black). Those of us who still use male-biased language are just showing our age, and I don’t think we should defend the habit. I’m still trying to break the habit of saying “guys” myself. We shouldn’t accept the fact we’ve internalised our own marginalisation.
July 14th, 2007 at 5:55 am
I do hope Clarice and Mo at least go out and have dinner, maybe make a weekly habit of it. Why are we so cut off from our friends?
July 14th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Amen Jaibe! Forget romance between Mo and Clarice, just having the two of them hang out for a long face to face conversation would be great.
Other thoughts: how about Sparrow doing an intervention for her friends?
July 14th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Just realized that last suggestion could be considered “telling the artist to change [her work]“.
Withdrawn.
July 14th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Anybody else remember when Electric Company led off with that woman yelling, “Hey, you guys!”?
I never felt like she was only calling boys.
Anyway, I’d have been reprimanded for using Youse (ignorant) or Y’all (an affectation unless used by someone from the south).
You guys works.
July 14th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
I find that y’all is divinely inclusive. It’s a contraction for “you all”, and if “y’all” bothers y’all so much, try the long version. I find when I ask most people what it is exactly what bothers yhem about the term, they generally say it sounds “stupid”. When pressed as to why it is “stupid”, they cite it’s general “southern-ness”. Because we all know southerners are stupid, right? Southerners like Flannery O’Connor, or Harper Lee, or William Faulkner—idjits all, fer sure.
As jj said , one would not think of addressing a group of men as “you girls” and we would never say, “Hey women!” Why? Because, for some reason, that greeting would be insulting to them. So what, “you guys” is a compliment? Because everyone knows it sucks to be a girl and so much better to be a boy?
You all can continue to address each other whatever way you’d like; I will continue to revel in my southern stupidity and continue to say Y’ALL.
July 14th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Good strip, well drawn.
check out this website,
it is like totally the
opposite of yours.
http://www.aimhigherbooks.com
July 14th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Hey Y’all!
shadocat~I like y’all and I’m a yankee. ;o) I think y’all is neutral and inclusive. I also like the fact that you listed my three favorite southern writers! Have you read the biography of the elusive Harper Lee? It’s title is simply, “Mockingbird.” I highly recommend it.
I’m fixin’ to go to class. Hope y’all have a good weekend.
July 14th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
The woman who yelled “HEY, YOU GUYS!!” on The Electric Company was none other than the amazing Rita Moreno. I have to confess that when I was little that exclamation used to scare me. It probably had something to do with the fact that The Electric Company was on after Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood — the transition from Fred Rogers’ soothing, comforting world to the brash, noisy Electric Company was too much for my four-year-old brain to take. A few years later I did grow to appreciate The Electric Company, especially “Letterman” and Morgan Freeman as Vincent the Vegetable Vampire. Actually, looking back on it The Electric Company had some pretty astounding talent, between Moreno, Freeman, and songs by Tom Lehrer.
As for “y’all” sounding like an affectation: for generations, Southerners have been taught to lose their regional dialects in order to get around in educated circles. I think it would be a refreshing change if we accepted that different regional dialects all have something to contribute, and were willing to accept non-sexist language that has evolved naturally rather than trying to force awkward neologisms. As I see it, using “y’all” for the second person plural is the same as using singular “they”, and is greatly preferable to any invented substitute.
July 14th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Apropos of nothing:
In panel Five, does it look to anyone else as though Clarice is taking a clip in the head from a couple of 2×4’s? I dunno–maybe I’ve been spending too much time at the Comics Curmudgeon site…
Best wishes to all.
July 14th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
I just keep waiting for Mo to lose her sh*t with Sydney, like she did way back when. You know, the time Harriet called her a liberal.
I want Mo to really get mad , throw things, get in Sydney’s face.
*sigh* Poor Mo, poor Clarice…
July 14th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
oops, again,,, that’s supposed to to be “bothers them”. Only I would write a post trying to prove the intellegence of the Southern writer, and then misspell a simple word…
and suncarious, yes I read “Mockingbird” and enjoyed it very much (although I read somewhere that Mizz Harper detests it thoroughly, an when referring to it, calls it “that awful book”).
July 14th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Helene M! I haven’t thought about the electric company since sixth grade! Whoo! My fifth grade teacher brought a television so we could watch the very first episode. To have a TV in a classroom was very unusual in 1971, even in Southern California. We never watched the other episodes in class. I watched a few on TV at home, but just like Sesame Street, it was so overtly NYC-centric that I would rather read books.
If I remember right, Rita Moreno’s character was always yelling up at “you gu-uys!” in an upstairs apartment for some misspelling they had committed on a flyer left on the stoop. I always thought she was yelling at a group of men, and fairly stupid ones, too. Who else would litter and commit poor English at the same time? Those same guys, or their sons, now have Internet access. They post comments in forums and other people’s blogs; which comments are not only homophobic, racist and sexist, but incoherent, poorly structured, and revoltingly spelled.
“Hey you gu-uys! See you later!”
July 14th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
“Guys” doesn’t get my goat for some reason. It has become such a generic word. I do however have a problem with “girl”. I’m 41 years old and still a “girl”. I think its the double standard of the use of “boy”. We would be very hard pressed to find the term “boy” used for a 41 year old male in some professional context, but could hear “girl” often in that context. It wasn’t until my husband and I were watching a tv show on HBO (six feet under) and he was talking about something about one of the actresses - one of the character’s mom - was AT LEAST late 50’s maybe early 60’s. He referred to her as a girl. It just sounded so freakin’ odd. But the the odd thing was his explanation. He grew up in a society (cult) of Jehovah’s Witnesses and the adults would use the term “woman” as a derogatory term. Like: “What did you put in this food, WOMAN?! Tastes’ awful” kind of comment. So he grew up with “girl” being a more kinder comment. Hard to imagine. It’s also hard to imaging someone referring to me as WOMAN that way. His sh!t would be out on the curb faster than you can say WO-MAN.
Anyway - I wanted to throw out that girl thought I had.
July 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Change of thread here…
There was a nice homage to Alison and Fun Home in the comic strip unshelved last week.
http://www.unshelved.com/archive.aspx?strip=20070708
July 14th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
You know, “The Electric Company” was a hidden treasure for theatre geeks of a certain age during the 70s. I mean, the original cast included Bill Cosby, Rita Moreno and Skip Hinnant! The “Letterman” segments were animated by the Hubleys, and featured Gene Wilder, Joan Rivers, and Zero Mostel! Irene Cara was a member of the Short Circus!
July 14th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
I would like to confess that I not only shopped at Costco the other day, but I almost bought “The Dangerous Book…” For myself. Who is not a boy. Today. Thank you.
July 14th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Incidentally, when you bolded the “unavailable older woman in positions of authority,” I felt like you were speaking right to me. It warmed the cockles of my little heart. Now I’m off to buy some books. And possibly a life.
July 14th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
“Boys” can be an in-group term, as in the phrases “poker night with the boys” and “the boys in the band”. Fred Flintstone and Ricky Ricardo would call themselves and their men friends “boys” just as much as they would refer to Wilma and Lucy and their friends as “girls”. Granted, poker night is not a professional context, but playing in an orchestra in a night club is.
July 14th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Ah, the Electric Company! Let’s not forget Mel Brooks and Tom Leher, both of whom showed up in animated form. Some episodes of the show are now available on dvd, by the way. I bought ‘em for my kids, but ended up watching them myself.
July 14th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
And don’t forget Morgan Freeman as Easy Reader, the Phonics Pimp!
As for this “guys” thing, it seems very simple to me. “Guys” can mean either a group of men, or a group of PEOPLE. Words can have more than one meaning. I don’t see a problem.
July 14th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Maybe Mo will put the couples therapy session to good use on her own, to talk about how Syndey treats her. For that matter, to talk about why she continues to be freshly surprised every time at Syd’s behavior. Let’s hope there’s some advice like Aunt Soozie gave her.
Andrew B, you said, “Now if only Clarice could do the same. She has got to make a serious play to hang onto her relationship with Toni. She can’t just keep letting it fall apart when she obviously cares.” But they have split up: they have separate wills and they only live in the same the house for financial reasons.
July 14th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Isn’t there an irony intended with the dangerous boys book? A lot of the more active of the “dangerous boys” stuff actually was stuff we were into as girls. Looking at the table of contents, there’s a lot of science, history, and sports stuff I don’t see as dangerous, and the rest of it isn’t terribly alarming. We built a fort, made slingshots, tortured spiders and bugs, tormented little sisters :-(, made paper airplanes and boats… LOL…The most jarring thing is to read excerpts because they are so retro in tone I as a girl would have laughed at them in the 1960’s and ’70s. Definitely, and I wasn’t even much of a tomboy.
Suzanne, going over her self-imposed internet fun time limit for the week. Sigh.
July 14th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
I loved the Electric Company. Fave PBS show of all time. As a 4 year old, I fanatasized extensively about being a member of the short circus.
‘Guys’ doesn’t offend me(the strong responses gave me pause to give it some consideration), but I don’t use it. I tend towards ‘cuties’, ‘babies’, and ‘kittens’ for sexually mixed groups that I know well or socially (like my assistants).
July 15th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Oh dear, I’m afraid to confess that I did, in fact, buy “The Dangerous Book for Boys” & my son loves it so much, he takes it to camp every week to introduce to the other kids & counselors. (they change every week) AND, I call almost everyone, from peers to relatives to students of any gender, “Dude.”
I also show my littler son youtube clips from The Electric Company pretty much daily.
July 15th, 2007 at 4:00 am
There are plenty of words in the English language that have both proper and every-day-use definitions. As one who grew up in the flurry of discussion about ebonics and the theory of the reclamation of certain words by those who were/are affected by them, I can only say that the limit to which certain words are acceptable speech depends upon the audience with which they are used; much in the same way that my friends and I can sit around and call each other dykes and fags and a whole slurry of other “offensive” words.
Personally, I’m a little more emotionally grounded than to be offended by the word “man” or “guys” or any other male identifier. Perhaps its because I am mistaken for a dude on a daily basis. Perhaps its because my father saw nothing wrong with me playing Little League with the boys. Perhaps its because I can get behind the reclamation movement. Perhaps the Nintendo culture of plugging in and tuning out has created and entire generation of the completely semantically apathetic. Or maybe — just maybe — it doesn’t really matter and we should all just have a coke and a smile.
I have no use for political correctness, here or elsewhere. I can thank Alison and those who have come before me for blazing a path of queerness to the bonfire of normalcy. I may look different. I may act differently. But I don’t FEEL different, and I’m certainly not going to speak differently.
As a small aside, can any of you guys see the “bonfire” comment as a slogan for some Waco-esque lesbian anti-culture?
July 15th, 2007 at 6:46 am
Wow, we’ve been witnessed at! (for anyone who didn’t follow Veracious’ link…) Like the web bot though, decent voice synth.)
July 15th, 2007 at 6:54 am
Speaking of sexism, I picked up a second-hand book called “Fun for Boys” from 1943 a few years ago which seems just like “Dangerous book…” I have it on my shelf because I thought it was so funny & retro to have to spell out what boys like (magic, ju jitsu, identifying planes, training your dog, etc., and guess what, chapter one is “The Secrets of Cartooning” by Chuck Thorndike.) But I guess if girls are interested in those sorts of things they *still* can’t have any gender-identity issues.
July 15th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Jes’ like the Supremes & Vanilla Fudge:
You keep me hangin’ on…
July 15th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Totally off Topic (TOT?)–
I am re-reading Fun Home because my wife and #1 son are off to AB’s home state to attend the Dyke Docs conference in Burlington (the wife is a Doc, I, a mere librarian). So, in re-reading, I realized how much of AB’s life and her re-telling of her fathers life is bound in the classics of literature! I have been thinking of starting a reading list based on the books in Fun Home, I think it would be great to read (or reread) some of these in the context of the beautiful telling of Fun Home. Here is a partial list:
James Joyce (esp. Ulysses), Camus, Proust, Colette, Woolf’s Orlando. Ect. Well, I’m not sure where to post this idea, so I’m putting it off in the ether. If there’s any interest, maybe we could start a tertiary blog?
So gang, what thinks you(se)?
– Deb Levheim, Mistress Librarian, wrangler of books and databases.
July 15th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Deb - be sure to visit pine street art works while you are in Burlington for the conference, and drag along all the docs and signifcant others you can. You can see (and buy) framed original drawings from Fun Home and DTWOF. And other cool stuff.
http://www.pinestreetartworks.com
I’ll make sure to have a bunch of gallery postcards at the hotel for the conference. Sheesh. I wouldn’t have even known about it if you hadn’t posted and I googled it.
thanks for the heads up.
July 15th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
It’s all very well to claim that men have privilege, and the whole world is set up to please and reward and promote men, but that only applies to adults. What do boys see? Nancy Drew, but not the Hardy Boys. Mandy is clearly a better person than the repulsive Billy. DeeDee is smarter and always comes off better than Dexter. Jackson is no more than an idiotic comic foil to Miley/Hannah.
GI Joe and other action figures are not as prominent as they were when I was a child. Boyish behavior is punished or treated with drugs and therapy. Most school libraries and children’s bookstores promote books that are either perfectly gender-balanced (”Magic Schoolbus” and “Magic Treehouse”) or girl-centric (American Girl). There are lots of movies about ordinary girls in almost-realistic situations (”Bratz” and “High School Musical” and “Cheetah Girls”) but boy-movies are always fantastical and unattainable (”Transformers” and “Lord of the Rings” and “Star Wars”).
Perhaps the _Dangerous_Book_for_Boys_ is a balance (not a backlash) to the feminization of American childhood.
July 15th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Wow, what children have you been hanging out with, Anonymous? The girls in my life are all but drowned by the boy-centered toy industry. SpiderMAN, BatMAN, X-MEN, Rescue Heroes, at least 80% of action figures are male. Name a Pixar movie with a prominent female character. And the books that sell the most, from Harry Potter to Captain Underpants, are heavily male. Plus — Nancy Drew was not a positive role model for me as a girl, not when I wanted to make my own way without the heavy-handed influence of a father figure or the compulsory heterosexuality of a vacuous boyfriend.
I agree with you that boys are treated with drugs to make them into good little worker bees for the corporate system, but all children are being medicalized in the name of conformity, one way or the other. Girls are having make-up and dieting pushed on them by toddlerhood. Gender freedom is labeled a disorder to be treated, not the wisdom of children trying to reject the conditioning of boxes. The sexual dimorphism of current American culture, with its fascistic emphasis on femininity vs. masculinity and insistence that these are biological reality instead of made-up, dehumanizing fantasies, has not been this strong since the 1950s. I don’t equate the push to make children malleable and consumers as “feminizing” them, but then, I don’t believe in femininity and if I did, I wouldn’t see it as any more negative than masculinity.
The fact that a book full of interesting activities for children was labeled as “For Boys” in order to sell really proves the point.
July 15th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
the feminization of american childhood!? You’ve got to be kidding me! BWAHAHAHHAHAA where the fuck do you live?
July 15th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Wow. Clearly you guys (whoops) need to meet and wrestle to the death.
July 15th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
My six-year-old daughter is already asking me why there are so few girls in movies and books that she likes. She says she wants to write stories about girls when she grows up. My budding feminist! I couldn’t be prouder.
July 15th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Re “Hit it, boys!”:
People sometimes post song lyrics on my favorite jazz message board, nearly always by way of making a joke. Even the most civilized male posters preface such lyrics with the “traditional” cue “Hit it, boys!” When I do it, I put “Hit it, boys and girls!” or occasionally “Hit it, girls!” Next time, maybe I’ll use “Hit it, folks!” or even just “Hit it!”
(I could also use “Hit it, girls and boys!” but believe me, I can’t get away with “Hit it, men and women!/women and men!/wimmin and men!” etc. The context just doesn’t permit it.)
P.S.–
It’s a woman-owned/womon-owned jazz message board. Egregious expressions of misogyny and homophobia are officially taboo. Y’all come and see whether you’re comfortable with the extent to which some of the posters need edjamacating–
http://speakeasy.jazzcorner.com/
July 15th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Suzanonymous, I don’t know how to pinpoint the moment in the process of a relationship’s disintegration when the couple has definitively broken up. If Clarice and Toni have already passed it, then Clarice needs to make an effort to get back together. She wants to be with Toni. I tend to think Toni wants to be with her — she’s just gotten fed up with having to do all the work in the relationship.
Duncan, if you’re still reading, I shouldn’t have said that’s what monogamy is. That’s what a committed relationship is. Conceivably you could have a committed relationship without monogamy. Certainly you can have monogamy without real commitment. The point I wanted to get at is that Toni and Clarice have something worth saving (or recovering), monumentalism notwithstanding.
July 15th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Ok, not much to do on Sunday night here… Looking back at a couple of other comments — remember how Clarice broke down and sobbed after she and Toni got their civil union? She does care. She is not just jealous. (Although she plainly is also jealous, which is something she’d better get over.)
Regarding separate wills: yeah, and they hired the lawyer who can’t keep track of daylight savings time to write them. It’s hard to think of a more blatant way to sabotage the process.
July 15th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
I think those who insist on finding — or even sometimes instigating — conflict revolving around every single slightest possible way that our culture (and it is just that: OUR culture) reflects some sort of bias are doing themselves and their cause a disservice.
To paraphrase Freud, “Sometimes a turn of phrase is just a turn of phrase.”
July 15th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Thanks for the explanation. I was starting to think I’d turned into Syd’s dad.
July 15th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Holy crap…all these comments, and we’re still talking about a) the strip itself, and b) what Alison wrote. Usually by now, we’re on to quantum physics or pet-safe upholstery or zoning laws in Scandinavia or women-born-women spaces or…or…that GODDAMNED ORANGE CAKE.
July 15th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
The English language does need a second person plural. A long time ago, at least according to what I have heard, “thou” was singular and “you” was plural. Since that time we’ve come up with various ways to make up the shortcoming of our language. Personally, I favor “you all” (maybe because I grew up in central Missouri).
Thanks for all the remembrances here. I was young enough at the time that I didn’t realize all the amazing names connected with that show! I grew up listening to Tom Lehrer, on the vinyl record that was instrumental in bringing my parents together on one of their first dates…it makes sense that we would have tuned in to Electric Company if he was involved!
But I do remember with affection the “Hey you guys!” from Electric Company
July 15th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=12394812
hey, Joss Whedon (creator of Buffy and Firefly and other nice things)gives props to fun home in this video clip on myspace.
July 15th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
The post about ten entries above this one wasn’t supposed to be anonymous. My browser used to put my nick in automatically and I didn’t realize until just now that it hadn’t. Let me type it here in case the browser messes up again: Today’s anonymous post at 3:57 pm was from Jeffster83.
To “The What?”: I live in Southern California.
To Filosopher: I’ve been hanging out with my two daughters and their friends, taking them to movies of their choice, watching “Zoey 101″ and “Lizzie McGuire” and “Hannah Montana” with them. My daughters don’t seem to find it difficult to find entertainment that interests them. I don’t care for most of it myself, but their mother and I do take the time to ask the girls their opinions on these shows and how the shows portray young women, convey attitudes about food and clothes, and how the male cha